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It’s just a job at that point, though.
At least you're doing something productive instead of just making Chris Kempczinski richer.
You are indeed, but it points to a fallacy in the original question. It's not universal basic income if it is stipulated that you have to do something to receive it.
Isn't that just a government job with extra steps? I thought the point of UBI is that it's meant to be, you know, universal.
As a side note, people have this tendency to think that government programs must be means-tested. That is, there must be a criteria that is met before someone is eligible for the program. Same with your assumption in the post - you assume that it must be better to add a stipulation. There seems to be this natural skepticism that if there is no criteria, people will take advantage of the program. I want to challenge that skepticism.
Adding criteria for eligibility inherently means the government must establish a bureaucracy for checking that the criteria is met. This has two notable downsides that people tend to not consider. First, it causes an applicant to wait longer before they can hear back from the program. With existing programs, it sometimes takes months before someone hears back. This ends up discouraging anyone from applying, even if they meet all the criteria. After all, what's the point of receiving aid in 3 months if you need the aid now?
Second, it causes the cost of the program to increase. A bureaucracy is difficult to maintain. The more money that is spent on checking for eligibility, the less money that people in need will get. And what is the work that such a bureaucracy will do anyways? How does it benefit society to hire someone to say that people's needs aren't "real enough" to get government aid?
Which leads me to a third, additional point - it's morally questionable to require people to meet a certain criteria before they can receive aid. To put it in another way, why do you feel like you need to gatekeep other people's needs? If a person says they're struggling, why should anyone say that they're not struggling enough?
I believe that people are naturally industrious and my goal in asking was to hear how peoples priorities would change without the threat of starvation and the like being weaponized by corporations to extract value from the working class. I know many of us would probably sleep for 2 months straight before starting anything. :-D
Perhaps the better question would have been:
If you had your basic needs guaranteed, how would you spend your time?
You should repost with that question.
disabled people (or others who cannot work) would be more fucked than they already are, raising the income floor for everyone except them, - this is why universal basic income is supposed to be universal
I left it open ended specifically so they could target their time how they wish. I know several disabled people who all contribute to my communities in various impactful ways, some without ever leaving the home. Having said that, my question could have been phrased better.
The problem is you can't really define what is "good for society". Maybe I think weird abstract art is good for society, whereas most people think it's a waste of time.
Who gets to decide?
That's an extreme example, but there are many such types of cases. Is a cash advance place "good for society"? It scams poor people but also provides them a line of credit that banks will not.
What about used car dealerships that sell overpriced cars at high interest? Is that "good"? Poor people get scammed but it gets them a car they otherwise would not be able to get a higher end dealership.
As for what I would do? Probably just contribute to open source projects or something.
Let me stop you right there. If there are *any* "stipulations," it ceases to be "universal" by definition.
Yep. That’s literally what a minimum wage job is
Except some minimum wage jobs involve making the world worse.
Lmao...a minimum wage job is not 40 hours a week of making the world a better place, and where I live, it cannot provide for the basic necessities of life.
This is not universal basic income.
You're describing something more like civil service than ubi I think. But if I was financially independent without a full time job I would focus on hobbies like music and find some advocacy cause to help support, probably separation of church and state or ai for everyone with easier to build and use models on consumer hardware, there's a few open source projects out there I'd like to understand better and contribute to if I had more time.
My union has me working 37 hours a week. Its not basic income if you have to work for it especially if you have to work more than a full time employment!
8hrs a day 5 days a week is normal employment. Some companies don't count lunches, so you stay there for 8.5 hrs.
Normal is subjective
37 hour workweek is normal here
https://businessindenmark.virk.dk/guidance/employment-and-dismissal/working-hours/
The point of UBI is that it has no stipulations. It’s guaranteed no matter what.
Exactly. Its value becomes evident when a version gets to the stage where they can’t work. Very different from those that choose not to work.
And even more evident when you need to decide how to set up a bureaucracy, paperwork, and verification to judge whether someone else could be working more, or just not
Can that actually work in the real world though? If we all take the money and do nothing. Would that actually be sustainable?
Unclear. But eventually, people would work. People get bored, it's nice to have something to do, and get paid extra on top of it.
UBI just ensures that if they don't like a job, they can just quit, rather than be forced to keep working on pain of starvation.
Tests so far seem to be fairly positive about it working. People who get UBI aren't likely to sit on that money, they'll just go and spend it either paying back debts, or buying something nice for themselves, so the money will keep going around (just look at the COVID economic stimulus packages). They might even spend more than they might otherwise have, if they're not just scraping by.
It's a hypothetical question, read the room 🙄. He's just asking what you would do if you were tasked with making the world a better place.
If that was the case, they would have asked the question you did. But they didn't. They asked a different question. You're assuming their intent based on your own preconceptions. A common cause for miscommunication and confusion.
Well if they had asked that question, a lot of people would say things like
"How can I spend 40 hours a week making the world a better place when I'm stuck working this shitty job to barely pay for my life?"
I didn't comment on the quality of, or potential responses to, the new question.
You're also assuming something different than the words I used.
Maybe they weren't expecting a bunch of pedantic responses? lmao
Maybe. But you and I don't know that.
You're guessing their meaning, rather than accepting their words as written.
You're trying to mind read, rather than word read.
I'm applying "context" and "media literacy", you're being pedantic.
Reading your reply right now is really funny because the OP replied to the same person after you did saying "You heard what I meant"
You heard what I meant and I appreciate that. It was poorly phrased and I wish I had explained the theoretical better.
I qualified it with the "naturally industrious" thing because I wanted people to talk about what they'd do after they slept off the drudgery of current capitalism not immediately upon finding out they don't have to go to work anymore just to survive and have basic amenities. As you stated, I could have also phrased in an equally bad way where everyone just pointed at their job and said "I have no time or energy". That's the problem. I was trying to filter out the "If I had UBI, I would smoke weed and eat potato chips all day" answers.
If I had phrased my question as, "if you had a guaranteed income and were able to use 40hrs a week of your time to make the world a better place, what would you do?" That would have been better.
Are we counting raising kids? Because I feel like that would be the answer for the supermajority of people. It's super necessary work that society is utterly dependent on, yet we insist on not compensating.
Shit, we could just do UBI for parents and we'd be 80% there.
Germany does Kindergeld which translates to "kid money". Of course Germans don't want to have kids as much. Many Americans don't know what birth control is or how to use it (someone else on this thread is solving that issue). I absolutely believe that you should be able to take as much time as you need to ensure your kids grow up well. Plus, some kids are harder than others.
Assuming you actually are raising the kids. Plenty of utterly useless parents out there who end up raising other psychos.
Because they are forced to spend 50% of their awake time working to make other people rich. I'm sure this would get much better when people get the time to properly concentrate on raising a child and maybe even have time to visit a course on how to be a better parent
My current job is receiving/dispatching IT equipment to keep hospitals running, so I think I'd keep doing what I'm doing. It's a modest contribution, but someone has to make sure the people working on cures for cancer can get their email.
One of the unsung heros... no sarcasm. I chose not to imagine my dentist drilling around or my surgeon slicing me up without all their fancy tools and software. Why, because it's horrifying. Thank you for your contributions.
I'm a developer, I have some open source projects I don't have the time to invest in... I'd probably shift like 40% of my time to that open source projects.
I'm with you on the 40% thing. If I didn't need to put in 40hrs to get my health insurance, I would absolutely work on several smaller tasks instead of 1 big job, just to avoid the burnout that comes with doing the same thing for those long stretches of time. It also gives us context and allows us to make connections that we may not otherwise make.
I guess I'd keep doing my current job and enjoy the extra income by spending it on luxurious things like grounded electrical outlets and updated plumbing that isn't falling apart.
Its funny that basis things like working plumbing, or access go clean water could be considered luxurious.
I would keep my current job as well but take a day off each week (instead of one of my weekend days) to cleanup my surrounding neighbourhood. I would probably use the extra income to repair some wood benches, buy paint to cleanup graffiti on walls, and throw down grass seeds along local trails.
Look at Money Bags over here
I would create "smart home" things for disabled people.
I had enough time then, to go, ask them and find out what is really helpful - without the need to make a profit.
For example, one has asked me why there isn't a washing machine for a wheelchair's wheels. A real problem. The wheels get dirty when he is outside, and then he enters the home and they are still dirty. The machine would have to work without him leaving the chair and it needs to be installed inside the home - not in a garage or so.
Universal basic income means no requirement to do anything.
However as a worker in healthcare, I'd probably continue as I am.
Honestly, I would go back to being a park ranger. I loved the job and helping people in nature, I just couldn't survive on the pay. If that wasn't an issue, I would go back in an instant
Deleting my socials (i spread misinformation)
I was going to say something else but reading many people are right. UBI would never give a nice life so I would forgo it and work a normal job. The whole point of ubi is its there when you need it and really just gets you by. Very few people would want to subsist on it but if they had to they would.
I believe OP was referring to a utopian Star Trek style UBI where all things are provided with matter replication. Essential life at that point is the betterment of ones self and evwyone around them.
But you are correct in our world currently UBI would work more as a cushion or buffer. It would ideally allow individuals that are stuck in jobs they hate, to move to jobs they actually enjoy and are good at.
It would mean less fear of loosing a job and give workers more power. You would not be able to live on the wage at your current life style, but it would allow you to at least survive in someway if you lost your job.
I believe the best way for something like this to get implemented is by taxation of businesses that have automated they workforces. For example a car production line has removed human roles and replaced them with machines, or a store removed cashiers and replaced them with self checkouts.
I disagree on automation taxation as that is exactly what we want for post scarcity. What we really need to do is tax all forms of income progressively. No lower corp or capital gains or such. land tax possibly to. if it was like star trek that is a bit hard to handle as many of the things I might work out would theoretically already be solved.
Good point on the taxation, as taxing automaton may result in less incentive to automate.
IMO the Star Trek type utopia would only work if we had replication technology like they have in the show. Those machines that essential make anything you want from food/water to material things out of thin air.
well its possible once machines can source materials, build themselves, and repair themselves we will have what it takes assuming they can do that with spare cycles to farm and such. I don't think we quite need replicators although something like that or nanobots on that level will help a lot. We certainly have to moderate our consumption unless we figure out how to actually live in space and source from other solar bodies.
I would not do anything, claiming that I'm preventing myself from making the world a worst place.
Haha joking. I'll start auditing open source project for free and improve the overall security of our whole infrastructure.
Spreading awareness and availability of birth control and family planning. We've been above global carrying capacity for a long time now, and it will end badly. I'd try to soften the blow.
Good point, if people are inclined to be child-free, we should celebrate that and support them, not nag them every Christmas and ask when they're gonna have kids, also it's what allows others to have kids without contributing as much to overpopulation. It also means kids end up with parents who actually wanted kids. I'm totally on board with this.
Thanks, I appreciate that.
I’d sit at the end of my driveway and offer free hugs. That’s making the world better, imo
Hell yeah! I wish you could do that instead of going to work.
Making the world a better place doesn't need to be some grandiose revolutionary affair.
All the little things you do while being alive would add up. Whether it's hanging out with a friend, giving your pet some extra pats, or cleaning up your own space, and that would put you a good deal of the way there, if not be enough on its own.
Honestly I make well above what the UBI would pay, so I’d keep doing what I do. But I have dreams of investing in garbage-burning power plants in the US, and having some of you able to help with this makes it much more obtainable.
Wouldn't that be absolutely terrible for air quality? It already feels like I'm sucking on a car exhaust in half the cities I visit.
With proper filtration, it’s a good choice. It can keep us from burning more fossil fuels, and also keeps the land fills from producing methane (which is worse than co2).
But what's the proper filtration? Seems like burning garbage would include a wide range of dangerous emissions, including heavy metals.
How the hell would one define "making the world a better place?' 😂
I'd imagine about 600 pages of beaurocratic law which has several addendums that nullify the definition entirely.
I think that's the entire point of this exercise. Thinking about what making the world better would actually mean and entail.
I would do my current job for free with people who need it but couldn't afford it (massage) think seniors, sick, disabled ect. Also, spend time working with animal rescue/shelters in some way
Welp. I don't know if I'm capable of working to begin with my chronic illness. I'm unemployed currently and it's not even manageable at home, I've been in hospital twice in a month. And I've been having a flare up of it since January. So most two seasons so far.
I wish the system gave you more space to easily do this. I know people who are pinched between recovery and work and it's inhumane not to let them take a break. The system doesn't recognize that we have to take care of our own health and basic needs before we can maximize our helpfulness to others.
I have a few homelessness projects that I haven't had the energy to check up on in about a decade. One is a men's shelter. We haven't had a shelter for homeless men in our region in over a decade. I'd probably start working toward (re)opening one of those in my town.
What comes to mind: - Collect trash in nature - Demonstrate in front of parliaments if politicians are about to make stupid laws - Demonstrate outside of billionaires' properties demand that they pay their fair share to society
Let's stack the trash on the lawns of the billionaires who own the companies that made it. My city council meetings are often at noon or one. Guess what I'm doing that time of day?
I would lobby for our government to take Invasive Plants seriously. Sales of invasive plants needs to be banned from nurseries, and Highways/gov land owning entities need more money invested towards habitat restoration.
I'm with you, from the urban design perspective. Our cities should be fitting into nature as best they can, not steamrolling thousands of acres of ecosystems. You'd also free up the labor of all the people who will have to fix this mismanagement down the road.
Since I was a kid I've wanted to be an inventor but I don't think of marketable things and hate the idea of locking my ideas up behind legal restrictions (I prefer to license my personal software and 3D print designs under the MIT "just make sure my name stays attached" license).
So yeah, I'd just design stuff and put it into the world...
Nice! I imagine this would do a lot to break down some of the ways intellectual property slows down progress. If we could freely borrow and build on other peoples designs with credit given, we'd be driving repairable, eco-friendly, car-planes by now.
I'd probably just roam around and look for problems, fixing them as I go.
Chaotic good handyman. I like it.
I would argue with racists on the Internet
Someone has to educate those people, right?
I would start a community space with a dance hall, coffee shop, bike shop, maker space, brewery, and library centered on an urban trail to show people you can go places and do worthwhile things without an automobile. I'd include parking for cargo bikes, trikes and hand bikes, along with upright bikes and chargers for electric bikes. My hope being that the model would spread to other cities and higher density residential developments would spring up around it. Obviously my UBI wouldn't cover that no matter how generous it was, so step one would be to use my extra time to get buy in from like minded neighbors.
Make a bunch of politically conscious punk music.
Teach. I already teach and I would continue to do so even if I had enough money to retire. I just love seeing young people discover the joy of programming and 3D modeling.
Convincing whoever's in charge of checking up on that sort of thing that the world is better off if I stay inside at least 40 hours a week.
Grow food
Sewing buttholes on teddy bears.
That is just so nebulous that you could almost do anything.
I am a hobby phographer, and I consider my photos mere existance as making the world a sliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiightly better place.
I won't pretend that I am amazing at photography, but some fantastic pictures would not exist without me, there would absolutely be almost identical photos in existance, but not mine.
I like driving, so I guess I could be a driver for road trips in Europe, not in a bus, but in an estate car, artisenal road trips as you say, that would provide more good to the world than me just going to road trips alone and keeping most photos to myself.
Where is the threshhold for what is considered good to get the money?
I think that's reasonable. If your motivation is not to get some corporate chump to pay you enough to avoid starvation, I think its a good answer. Authentic culture is a "good" thing for the world and art is culture.
Free comp sci tutoring (which I often do anyway), make free courses and hold seminars, and make significant contributions to open source! That would be such fulfilling work if I didn't have to worry about money.
Taking freely licensed photos in the summer. Open source software development in the winter.
Same thing I do now but with a fatter bank account
If the job I already do does make the world better does that count or do I need to work 80 hours a week to get something that's 'universial'
Probably just spend more time contributing to foss projects. Maybe write technical documentation.
That would be awesome. I know many of those projects need the help and some are more widely used than many proprietary corporate products.
To be completely honest, my life wouldn't change at all.
Telling people that think there can only ever be two viable political parties that they are 100% wrong.
You might be better off trying to change the US voting system. The first part the post system there is now will always result in two dominant parties https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
I think I’d keep my current job. 40/wk is the grind I worked to get away from.
Sick. What MLM are you a part of?
I already do, I'm a teacher. But if I could do anything to get paid, I'd run free English classes and conversation clubs for refugees
Picking up trash
I'd join you and strap a broom to the bottom of my bike to sweep gutters and sidewalks!
Disregarding the fallacy in your opening, and calling things for what they are:
If a conditional basic income started today with the stipulation that I had to put 40 hrs/week towards making the world a better place or solving societal problems,
I would spend them by becoming a politician and implementing *true* Universal Basic Income.
I’m a mechanical engineer product designer so using that for where I can to protect coral reefs
I’d try to find ways to use my skills as an industrial engineer to help the environmental movement, possibly trying to retrain. Then I’d also spend like 10-20 hours a week recycling bicycles
I'd just keep doing my job instead
I would work as Chef in a communal restaurant where we cook the rich. Freshly served and hunted by ourselves.
Edgy
Political organizing and education. Most problems, especially economic and societal problems are rooted in political causes: bureaucratization, consolidation of power, bottlenecking, corruption, etc.,
Only active participation in democratic organizing of mass movements along class concerns has ever been effective at combatting these social illnesses. This starts and ends with educational development. We are kept weak through confusion and ignorance; which leads to division, opportunism, fear, and alienation.
I would make art again.
Play my clarinet in the French Quarter. Yeah! That's it.
I work in residential therapy. If me helping people with serious trauma progress their therapy and develop healthier lifestyle routines and prevent self harming doesn't constitute as solving societal probems then I want to know what the person defining who gets UBI is smoking
Free tech support on lemmy
Same as I do now, working 20 hrs/week doing fun stuff. Basic income wouldn’t be enough to support what I do to make myself happy.
Im a software developer, so I guess whatever I’m told to do. I’ll do it.
I would just keep working. UBI should be unlocking the ability for us to pursue our passions, hobbies, and mental/physical health. If I just gotta work anyways, I choose my current job.
Volunteer at a school/daycare for poor kids. My (retired, formerly college professor) mother already does. I'm sure I could teach them some stuff. Maths or history or how to work computers. And failing that, I can always go to the baby room and help contain the chaos and fluids.
I'd probably quit my job, and work as a writer, artist, game designer, and entertainer full time. I'm worried about health care, though, being in the US. Can you throw in a little Medicaid for All in there?
I live in a shitty neighborhood with minimal options for kids and a lot of litter. First thing I'm doing is opening a nonprofit, daycare for kids ages 7-14. We'll focus on gaming, tabletop, and casual activity as well as local activism and civil service. We'll also teach cyber responsibility and privacy, kids are going to be on the internet more than any of us were growing up and someone needs to stop them from falling into the pipelines we did.
That would be awesome. I don't know where you live, but in the US, with everything being so car-centric, there are few activities that are accessible to kids without money and begging parents for a ride.
Talked to someone close to me about the internet thing for 2-3 hours just the other day. We can't legislate something like this, it has to be taught.
Great answer. I hope you win the lotto and can do this while living a comfortable life!
Yeah, here in south central Kansas it's particularly bad. I have 3 card shops in the area but they're all 40+min walks with the way traffic works here and our neighborhood is historically a slum. Apparently there used to be a nice park around the corner but the city took it away due to vandalism so there's a whole named park that's just an unpainted basketball court.
I've been here for almost a year and we only just found out that two of my son's class mates are our neighbors. There's just no good way for kids to leave the house here.
If I could wave a magic wand, training therapy dogs and horses. Or doing what I already do, but in a place that actually wants me to do it.
I would start working on a cyclical algae production system that would work indoors and rely on renewable energy. It would need to be built somewhere with plenty of sun and water. The goal would be to produce dried compacted algae to use for fuel while being carbon negative.
Same as now. My 40+ hr/wk making the world what it is, pays much better than any UBI. Until there’s a better solution for affordable housing and healthcare for my family, education for my kids, and retirement for me, I’m staying in the rat race
I was an Ocean Lifeguard for several years after high school. I would do go back to that. Service to others fulfills that contract to make the world a better place. I loved that job, and I know I impacted several families for the better during that time.
Arguing with people on lemmy, people are wrong and the internet and the world totally needs my opinions to correct them.
I think I'd take a few years and destroy all the "grass" lawns in the country, replacing them with native plants that don't need manual watering or chemical fertilizers and pesticides. Then I'd destroy a lot of vehicle infrastructure and replace it with high-speed train, bike, and pedestrian infrastructure. Then I'd probably just jerk off and go to concerts for the rest of my life.
Once the work is done, it's time to party! Seriously though. With 40 hours and no fatigue from corporate drudgery, I bet you could go far. I want to be more involved in bike/transit advocacy in my city, but many of the meetings are during work, or during the hour I need to unwind afterwards.
Animal shelter work, or do litter pick up in the woods or the beach.
I would spend my time at my current job making more money than this program would pay.
Taking walks, meeting new people and playing games. Fuck work
Well, several of my bosses are working on a way to hire me permanently to do just that.
The issue is that they have to convince highly conservative senior management that hiring a guy for $x an hour *is a lot less* than contracting the *same guy* for $5x an hour as part of a consulting firm, where the boss of the firm gets roughly $4-4.5x for doing nothing.
Building agriculture robots that purple can operate at home.
The goal is for everyone with land to be able to easily grow crops
How much is the UBI? Can I live off it comfortably? I'd probably contribute to society by spending the money thereby supporting the economy /s
I'd probably do two things:
1) Properly learn to code and spend much of that time developing open source software.
2) Immediately move out to the woods to start a wildlife sanctuary.
That said, while I'm a huge proponent of UBI, I definitely don't think it could ever work this way (though I get that this was just a fun thought experiment).
In actuality I see the outcome of a UBI as working class people having a little more time and energy to properly invest in themselves, either through education, self care, etc. Studies have shown that largely people continue to work (or better yet, start their own small business), albeit not necessarily at the backbreaking and emotionally-draining pace they currently do.
I’d stay home that way I’m not adding to societal problems.
Seriously though, the ONLY stipulations that should be put on UBI are:
1.) do you make over $100,000/year? This info is easily obtained from your W-2 that you are given every year for taxes.
2.) do you own a business? Once again easily obtained via public record and filing of your taxes via 1099 forms.
3.) are you over the age of 18? Once again easily verified through birth certificate dates via public record based on your social security number/resident green card (after 5 years of documented residency in the country. )
All this info is in government databases so there would be no concern of undocumented immigrants able to receive said funds or people getting more money because of having minors in there home.
You shouldn’t have to apply for it, hence the term universal.
UBI is based on having zero stipulations. The idea is that it benefits the less well of more by giving them a stable income, and it is cheaper to give it to everyone than spending any time and effort figuring out who the 'right' people are.
Everyone gets it is what makes it universal. There could atill be a process like voter registration so they know where to send the money, but citizens would never be denied.
Gating UBI only would make the well off bitter and turn them against it. Besides that, it would disincentivize work. UBI is not supposed to entirely replace all work in a society, even if it might result in some individuals not working.
I would keep on doing my job (teaching English as a foreign language), but I could get rid of all the pointless stuff such as grades, tests etc etc
Geez people in this comment section lack so much creativity
How depressing
I think this is more an indication that it is more fun to point out the flaws with a premise than to follow along (or at least it indicates that most did not think to check the comments first)
Negative Income Tax as proposed by Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Friedman is a much much much better implementation than a straight up UBI.