PieFedZelenskyy suggests he's prepared to end Ukraine war in return for NATO membership, even if Russia doesn't immediately return seized land
news.sky.com/story/zelenskyy-suggests-hes-prepa…
Volodymyr Zelenskyy has suggested a ceasefire deal could be struck if Ukrainian territory he controls could be taken "under the NATO umbrella" - allowing him to negotiate the return of the rest later "in a diplomatic way".
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If Ukraine wants this, it's their choice, and I absolutely understand why they would want to end the war.
But Russia should not think we can return to business as usual after this.
It's shameful IMO that EU hasn't helped Ukraine more.
But Russia should not think we can return to business as usual after this.
Oh we will, we will for sure, as soon as the bombs stop falling it's time to build more cheap gas pipelines.
With Trump incoming there's a pretty finite clock on how long Ukraine has to cease hostilities. Otherwise it's likely to face united opposition.
When they lost Chrimea, it was a total loss and a further war was inevitable. If you give up more territory for NATO membership, you can rest assured you won't go to war again.
Some ceasefire, with frozen conflict - similar to Korea. No real solution or peace treaty. That's why the landmines.
What are you proposing?
ikiddSomething akin to my marriage.
halyk.the.redA grueling daily standoff, mired with silent and tense interactions in the hallway, like ships passing in the night? A lonely, cold existence punctuated by depression medication dampened flaccid shower masturbation? A dreary, lifeless union blessed by a loud shop vac in the basement, so the kids can't hear you crying? You can't recall the last time you wore a seatbelt or drove sober, because she's always smiling at her damn phone, and always leaves the room to answer a call. You paid for the fucking thing, and her passcode isn't even the same as it used to be. Nothing is anymore. Maybe today's the day someone won't stop at a red light, or maybe you'll finally try to grab a cop's gun. But you won't. The drudgery shambles on.
Jesus christ. Uh, are you OK buddy?
I'm fine, thanks for the concern. My previous comment was inspired by the song Shop Vac by Jonathan Coulton, I've never been married. I figure I'd have to sell off my sex dolls first, but they were stupid expensive, and you'd surprised how quickly they lose value when you take them out of the box. I figure they're a bird in hand in either case.
coolguy
It will be interesting to see what happens here. Hope for the best, expect the worst.
The Winter War, which is generally considered a Soviet failure, still ended with Finland ceding a significant amount of territory to the Soviet Union. I wonder how similar Ukrainian leaders think their situation is to Finland's...
Zelenskyy also expressed readiness to work with Donald Trump, despite reports that Trump’s plans may involve Ukraine ceding occupied land.
There's no other reasonable course of action available to Zelensky. With that said, Trump might be volatile enough to actually support Ukraine's NATO bid. I don't think a rational US President would.
left to his own feces, trump will abandon ukraine in a heartbeat and leave it for putin. the moronic voters in the u.s. chose that path.
that's why ukraine is saying they're willing to 'work with' trump, there's no other choice.
Well, this war is amazing business for the US military-industrial complex, so we'll see if they still have more sway in shaping US foreign policy than Putin: https://www.vox.com/world/2022/12/16/23507640/dc-party-invite-military-contractors-money-ukraine-russia-war-us
osaerisxeroSo far, evidence suggests that the MIC was a paper tiger, at least compared to Russian Intelligence. It's, frankly, embarrassing.
He's a wildcard but Trump has pretty consistently opposed NATO including wanting the US to withdraw from it. Which makes sense as it would benefit Putin.
In his credit; he did criticise the other members for not spending enough on defence and that turned out to be a valid criticism and now everyone has increased that spending.
The funny thing is that the American military spending is not a gift to the world, it is the price to have US military bases around the world.
Me, as a non American, I am happy that there is less power concentrated in the hands of US (and not because US but because concentration of powers is always wrong)
But does this make sense for US? 🤷♂️
SteveThat seems totally reasonable to me.
*"We'll stop fighting, and let you have what you stole. But if you attack again at all, it'll be a very different kind of fight for you. In the long run, you'll probably have lost more than you gained by pulling this bullshit."*
No it's not actually reasonable, Russia doesn't deserve to get anything.
But I can perfectly understand why Ukraine doesn't want this war, they never wanted it. It was 100% Russian aggression, and that shouldn't be rewarded, but sometimes reality isn't fair, and you have to make unpleasant compromises.
You are not wrong, but joining NATO is the only way to ensure Russia won't just declare war again. And we have to be realistic here: Ukraine has surpassed all expectations here already. We can't expect this miracle to go on indefinitely.
It's not about deserving. Nobody *deserves* anything.
And you perfectly explained why it *is* reasonable.
Ukraine deserve their territory back, I don't see how anything I wrote says this is reasonable to Ukraine in any way.
Ukraine doesn't want this war, they never wanted it. [...] but sometimes reality isn't fair, and you have to make unpleasant compromises.
None of those translate to anything being reasonable. I think you mean rational. As reasonable also means fair.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/reasonable
For Ukraine to give in is maybe a necessity, that doesn't make it reasonable, because Russia is extremely unreasonable, which is why a reasonable compromise isn't possible.
Reason ... Able. Something that is able to be reasoned. It has nothing to do fair.
Honestly. Deserving and Fair, are privileged naive ideas to bring to war.
Arthur Besse
That would really suck for the people under Russian occupation. But be really good for all the other people...
Probably the best option left now that Trump will just throw him to the wolves
trolleyproblem.jpg
I can only watch
It would probably come with the safe passage to Ukraine...
It won't. Russia ABSOLUTELY needs those people because they've thrown hundreds of thousands of able-bodied men (and, reportedly, a lot of less-than-able-bodied men as well) into the meatgrinder for this war. That's part of why they've taken the old imperial strategy of deporting a LOT of the people in conquered areas to areas away from the fighting - it's part to get them out of the way, but also part to divorce them from that area, and make it a HELL of a lot harder to get back there (if there's even a "there" to go back to).
In other words, "we know we shoved you and your family into a bus at gunpoint and dumped you in Siberia, but if you wanna go home, you'll need to find your own way. Also don't forget rent is due the 1st."
Yes, and Russia was already facing a demographic crisis before the war. Its part of why they're kidnapping children.
Yep, they have an ongoing drug and AIDS crisis, and lost a lot of people to Covid since they only had their own vaccine, refusing other ones, which only worked in about half the cases though and which people were very sceptical of since the anti-vaccine propaganda on social media started by Russian bots to weaken the West backfired since Russians believed it as well.
I think he is being idealistic about Republicans' support for NATO. When Russia attacks Ukraine again, Trump will not support NATO.
Europe will, though, in full force. European Union even more so when Ukraine is a member
This was my interpretation as well. Zelenskyy sees the writing on the wall, U.S. support has an expiration date. He needs to make his case now so he's part of NATO before Trump tries to hang Ukraine and NATO out to dry.
Fuck. I knew things were going badly for Ukraine, but not this badly.
The US is providing a lot of resources to Ukraine and the second Trump takes over the White House, Ukraine loses that support.
This is one of several things he's said in the last couple weeks. He essentially threw it out there during an interview to let NATO and Russia know that's a deal he'd take. He's also said they're going to fight until the Ruble reaches the center of the earth. (Not his exact words)
It's political messaging. They still have a lot of levers they can pull.
That’s good to know. Thanks!
Deleted by moderator
That’s how I interpret it.
Not unless Ukraine diplomatically gets it back from Russia, rather than through fighting, which is unlikely. It would effectively be Russian territory at that point.
Ukraine would agree not to militarily contest those areas and would basically give up the ability to call on NATO in respect to them.
In return they'd have NATO troops, actual British, French, and German troops on the border of what is NATO daring Russia to do anything else. If it was anyone other than Trump in the White House the US would put a base in Ukraine and maintain an entire armored brigade in the area.
Kind of like China in the Korean War. Except we'd be getting a cease fire first instead of second.
It would be part of the negotiations, so the most likely way it will work is that to cease hostilities, they agree on a line on the map and everything left of the line is NATO. Anything short of that would mean Putin crosses the line in a few years.
Then negotiate with Russia about returning occupied territories in exchange for... Lifting sanctions, returning cash, trade agreements, whatever.
Erdogan just gonna veto it lol
Anything where Ukraine doesn't end as a full NATO member I suicide for Ukraine and zelenski personally. Putin has shown he doesn't care, he won't stop, and any agreement made will be broken the second people turn their heads around.
Ukraine becomes a full NATO and European Union or they're dead, and I'm sure zelenski is VERY aware of this
EU Defence pact would be a similar level of security, especially with Trump in the White House.
What exactly makes him think putting any part of Ukraine in NATO is going to make Russia suddenly stop invading them, rather than spark an even greater conflict? Has Putin offered any kind of deal like that?
Then he wasn't going to stop at just Ukraine anyways and there's no reason to wait.
Probably an assumption that Russia wishes to continue to exist.
Well, if they draw a line at the invaded territory, the next time Russia tries to invade even deeper into Ukraine they legally bound get all of the NATO members on their ass. So they might think twice.
So they will accept something that was on the table TWO years ago. It'll be fun to see the explanation to the families of the soldiers.
Lol, like anyone but Putin and Russia are to blame, or like the "NATO membership" isn't an important detail living next to a fascist state.
This possible agreement was already on the table two years ago when Boris Johnson convinced him to keep on with the war. And of course Putin is the one invading. But that agreement means everyone that has died in the last two years has died for nothing. Or even worse, because Russia is controlling even more territory than two years ago.
But it seems Zelenski can't make mistakes and NATO is always looking for the common good and human rights, right?
They died because Putin is a fascist.
End story.
End of YOUR story. But the fact is that Boris Johnson derailed an agreement that was almost this one. And signing a shitty agreement before the death of thousands vs signing the same agreement AFTER the death of thousands of your citizens is not the same.
Ukraine has just been a pawn in NATOs hands to make Russia bleed. If NATO had send all the help they send now from the beginning, there was a chance that Putin had turn around and left. But the target wasn't that but keep the war active. NATO had done the same thing fishermen do to make Russia stay in Ukraine.
And the ones suffering have been the people of Ukraine (civilians and military) and the soldiers from Russia (I have the hunch that most didn't wanted to go there).
I hate that those bastards don't put on a pair of boxing gloves and decide the war in a ring but send thousands of people to die for them.
Ok buddy fascist
I haven't insulted you. And the insult is the last resort when you don't have anything to say.