PieFed[September 2024] JD Vance says US could drop support for NATO if Europe tries to regulate Elon Musk’s platforms
Otterwww.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-po…
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/22332949
JD Vance said that ‘American power comes with certain strings attached’
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Did…did Vance just call European countries “backwoods”? He couldn’t possibly have, right? He’s not *that* stupid…right?
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He graduated from Yale...
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Anyone who goes to one of these universities has a certain degree of intelligence and access to wealth. You can certainly trade a little bit of one for the other but only within limits. And I would be extremely careful just labelling him dumb because he's a populist.
Intelligence is not a binary thing. There's loads of people in academia that are very good at the specific thing they study but are absolute morons about near everything else. Just because someone has a degree in business or whatever that does not mean they know jack shit about geography.
The guy has a law degree. That means he knows how to form complicated sentences that seem absolutely coherent. And sounding coherent is a large part of his basic business as the VP.
I find it unhelpful to claim he's "dumb" when in fact he's an opportunistic, malevolent, populist weasel.
Not only do I think Vance never meant to call the EU "backwoods" (I still think he used it as a comparison), it also doesn't matter whether he did. He pretty much has the upper hand:
- The most widely-used social networks in the EU are all based outside the EU, and they're all adversary.
- EU conservatives and right-wingers are already wondering how to kill EU regulation like GDPR, AI act and DSA. They cut into their ability to propagandize. They could also make money kn rhe side getting them abolished.
Finally, no one in the EU would care about slights like this. We have all seen the first Trump presidency unfold. We expect Trumpists to be pompous nationalist douchebags.
Why is that stupid? Europeans are dependent on him now. European leaders will demurely congratulate Trump and him on their victory and hope they won't be hit too hard by what comes next.
To call a bunch of countries that rank much higher than the States on quality of life “backwoods” is a pretty wild statement. The U.S. is the proudly unwiped asshole of the developed world.
Facts don't matter to Trump or Vance. Don't expect anything in that department. They care about getting ahead or looking like they are.
In my reading, Vance didn't call European countries "backwoods":
“I’m not going to go to some backwoods country and tell them how to live their lives, [...] But European countries should theoretically share American values, especially about some very basic things like free speech.”
My paraphrasing of that would be: "There are 'backwoods' countries and I expect nothing of them. But European countries must share our values and need to leave our propaganda platform untouched."
My reading is:
There are 'backwoods' countries and I am not going to be telling them explicitly how to live their lives, they should by default share our values and be doing what we do.
With this reading he is using backwood countries as european countries. With the American Republican party, you can safely assume the most offensive interpretation of their sentences because history shows us that they usually mean it.
“I’m not going to go to some backwoods country and tell them how to live their lives,” Vance added. “But European countries should theoretically share American values, especially about some very basic things like free speech.”
The US ranked 26th in the world when it comes to free speech, with several members of the European Union higher up the list, according to the 2024 Global Expression Report.
😑 I'm going to have to disconnect from the news more often moving forward
lime!most of europe explicitly does not have free speech, because it's commonly understood that harmful speech exists. i don't know what he's trying to convey with that idea but he comes across as misinformed, and not a little bit controlling ("should")
American here! Its because this is all rhetoric for the idiots that follow him. He doesn't care if Europeans see him as an idiot, he cares that the idiots here see him as big brained. And the rubes eat up anything that has "free speech" in it because they generally interpret that as "its OK to be racist and misogynistic, its my right because freedoms!"
Hope this helped explain.
And probably also explains why I want to leave.
Not sure how Euros haven't figured out that the main thing America inherited from Britain is our ability to not give a fuck what Continental Europeans think about us. Not sure why Euros keep thinking they can shame or guilt Brits and Americans into doing what they want.
cows_are_underratedThe important thing is, that in Europe free speech is normally defined as the freedom to say everything as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. This is also with a lot of different forms of freedom. Your freedom ends where the freedom of others begin.
That also exists in the US under libel. You can't say anything you want if it harms someone, unless I'm mistaken.
But that takes a lawsuit, which takes money. As such, it's really only a law to prevent the poors from speaking ill of the powerful.
And that is the proper definition imo. Other people are not NPCs, you are not the main character🤷
Americans always freak out when they hear Canada has hate speech laws and claim they're anti free speech.
Most of us don't ever need to worry about hate speech laws, because most of us aren't going around calling for violence and open bigotry against entire ethnic groups.
Not accepting hate speech, in particularly inciting violence is not contradictory to free speech in my opinion.
We should not follow the US idea, that speech is only free, if any vile poison can be spread. In the context of Musk that is also ironic, as he is using his powers to censor people.
332I think it's clear that we can never rely on the US again in any respect. Absolute chaotic backwater sinkhole of an oligarch fascist state.
We're on our own.
Maybe it's good that we know that now.
Goldmage263I can't even rely on the US government to value human decency as a native citizen. I'll keep fighting where I can, but yeah. Good luck.
As an American, I agree. Hopefully the Republicans try to go off the rails enough that the public finally gets convinced that the only way to deal with these maniacs is their own language - violence.
I hope you guys can get through it without anything dramatic happening, but I don't think the world can afford to rely on the US being consistently reasonable any more. This is genuinely Russia level stuff.
Dizzy Devil DuckyThe people who voted for him unironically ain't the brightest bulbs. I guarantee they'll see Tr*mp blame Dems and run with it.
Even if they do see them going off the rails, there's no guarantees we'll be able to do anything about it. For all we know, he could easily turn the country into a dictatorship where nobody gets to vote for anything anymore. As Tr*mp has said before, He'Ll OnLy Be A dIcTaToR dAy OnE (or something along those lines). In English, I'm positive that translates to "Democracy Is Dead".
I honestly hope not, although I worry for the US.
The issue is they aren't going to stop with their plan. Whatever rights they can remove and also reinforce their own political position and wealth, they will do. And if things get far enough in their larger plan, there won't be the option or ability to fight back, either democratically or otherwise.
The only real hope I see is if they try to go too far too quickly and people realize that if they don't make a proper stand, then they'll lose everything.
I think if the people want to fight back it needs to happen pretty soon. Trump already announced military force against „enemies from within“.
macnielSo not only declared JD *Ottoman-fucker* Vance his incompetence and ignorance of global affairs but also admits being on putins payroll.
So Vance is running the place not Trump?
DoomActually a little yes. He was chosen because he's a silicon valley fucker and friends with Peter Thiel. Hence the elon connection.
Vance wasn't just a stupid pick
I can't see how this makes any sense in a geopolitical view.
Stop expecting it to make sense.
It makes sense from the perspective that Musk is the new (secret) president of the USA. He paid hundreds of millions to get to this position, now he tries to get profit from it.
Musk is not the secret president, Musk did not even get elected lile Vance did. Musk will probably get his deregulation commission and some support for Twitter, since that's a worthwhile propaganda tool. Inasmuch as Trump is steerable rather than just behaving erratically, he is steered by old money and fossil interests.
Elmo's going to get fucked and tossed aside like every other asshole that deals with The Idiot. Did you miss the endless list of former cronies who endorsed Kamala, specifically because they worked with this walking personality disorder?
Any time you imagine some "4D chess" explanation, where surely there must self-consistent clever schemes behind this batshit insane nonsense, that is *you,* as a reasonable person, figuring out why a reasonable person would do something that looks batshit insane. That explanation will never predict future nonsense. These people are exactly as crazy as they appear. The gallingly simple explanation for why this all looks so fucking stupid is that fascism is not rational.
"Don't try to get the government involved in the business of billionaires, unless the government is giving them billions more of taxpayer dollars, or making it illegal to compete with them"
MrMakabarIn international relation rhetoric is policy. Just saying.
RubberDuckJup, sarcasmitron has a cool video out about the last time trump was president and he makes exactly this point too.
If that threat is even an option to bluff, then unfortunately NATO will likely be going away no matter what :(
I so hope I'm wrong.
Nah, if they are dump enough to push it that far there will actually be a coup in the USA.
Those guys that are itching to go and coup or invade countries that do not align with US interests are not going to just allow the US empire to crumple because of Democracy of all things.
Domestically things might not be much better though and it's possible that the US will resemble pre-Erdogan Turkey. A democracy with the military as a guardian.
Why? If the US withdraws the rest can stay, the framework exists. It's a matter of reciprocity. NATO/the EU would just need to expand her nuclear arsenal
Yes the US is absolutely the 500 pound gorilla in the room, but if the US manages to burn their relations with their allies, and stuff like 5 eyes would cease, they are essentially blind. The US operates it's intelligence network at the behest of countries and relies on information sharing just as much.
And with Iran and a LOOOOONG list of groups and people and countries they fucked over, angered, bombed, etc... the US will not see the next 9/11 coming.
The US has a lot of capabilities, but if a group of radicals manage to hijack several planes and bring down your new York landmark and damage the Pentagon, just imagine what better organized and equipped players can do.
Oh, and NATO operates primarily US weaponry, this also has a reason. If the US withdraws from NATO I think we will see cancelled orders and an orders placed elsewhere.. within NATO member states.
Trump has long shared his disdain for NATO – during his first term, he reportedly privately discussed pulling out of the alliance completely.
Which would at this point not be unwelcomed.
It wouldn't be fantastic, the UK and France can't project the same kind of power the US does.
DasusWell, true.
But on the other hand, sanity from not being beholden to a demented child-raping fascist is a big bonus.
Is the US power projection at the long term benefit of the EU though? The consistent destabilization of the Middle East for instance brought more tension to Europe as people had to flee from the region. EU member states getting dragged into US wars didn't help our image in the world either.
When it comes to defense, UK and France have enough nukes for effective deterrent. The EU is also large enough to thwart aggression at its borders and buffer zones like countering the Russian invasion of Ukraine, *if* the EU chooses to develop and maintain a joint defense infrastructure. Unfortunately that was postponed instead of forwarded after Biden won in 2020 and EU politicians went back to the status quo.
Yep, destabilization of Middle East is a big win for the enabler US against EU - they get influence and oil, EU gets migrant waves to deal with.
"Power projection" isn't necessary for a strictly defensive alliance.
The fact that a direct attack on one member counts as a direct attack on all members (some of which have nukes) is enough.
Unless you're going to nuke an invading force then many of the smaller or less well equipped NATO member nations are going to rely on the power projection capabilities of the bigger militaries in the alliance, right?
MicrowWhere does the "veto" un your title come from? The US can't veto shit. And Vance' quote is to stop support for NATO, not veto.
From the site. I don't change their headlines.
BruncvikDidn't the European commission recently declare that Twitter had become too irrelevant to regulate?
They're literally going to point to anything the EU does and say "Oh! Gotta pull out of NATO now!" They'll even make up shit that EU didn't do (probably like this fake ass threat letter) as excuse.
They intend to get out if they can, unless they get unilateral control, in order to strengthen Russia.
At this point the EU should just fucking seize all US assets within their borders, expel the US from NATO, and ramp up military investment. Trumps presence is only a noose around the EU.
They should tell Trump that if he tries to fuck around, they'll all immediately start trading oil in Euros. Maybe just do that anyway as a fuck you.
SanctusBecause nothing says freedom, and for the common human, like threatening to leave a defense pact over a private corporation. Fuck these guys to the fucken core. I am fucken over corporations having such power. I'm about willing to send us back to the stone age just to wipe their wealth. Fuck it. We can all go down if you want to be an eternal cunt to the rest of humanity.
Dumb and dumber want to take on EU regulatory entities?
Jokes on them, we're into that shit
*German bureaucracy intensifies*
Em AdespotonOnly problem here is that Trump is famous for not paying his debts.
He doesn’t play bureaucracy games; he just stops spending money in certain areas and lets the bureaucrats scramble to make it OK.
In other words, I see the US stopping all engagement with NATO and a EU/US tariff war in the future — IF he can pull it off in four years.
Frankly if the US starts playing the petulant child I can see the EU make their own version of NATO and keep the us-tantrum version as a side hustle for them to ignore at will. The new version might be smaller in scope, but places/bases far beyond the EU borders would not matter much anymore.
Also, the whole NATO treaty is linked to cable and transmission espionage ... If NATO breaks apart, no more spy data going to the US ...
When push comes to shove and Trump flings tariffs at the EU it'll be because he already tanked the US economy with tariffs on "chaina" and needs a new scapegoat.
And he hopes new tariffs on a different target will keep the finances afloat, refusing to see his tariffs hurt his own companies not other countries.
Perhaps part of the US wakes up when things they buy now suddenly will cost double or triple the amount in 3 years time.
On the other hand, the excuse will be a perpetual state of war aggainst ever differing enemies and that will make it easier to swallow the doubled consumer prices.
Perhaps he'll join his master Putin in attacking the ever evil EU.
But see here the users are the product. And the users come from Europe. Which has certain regulations. Unless they abide, then they don't get all that sweet product.
What they don't understand is that European bureaucracy doesn't play politics.
Sunshine (she/her)Oh god. I was so focused on Trump I forgot this dimwit came with him as a package deal.
Vance is smart. He says stupid shit for consumption by stupid people but don't ever turn your back on him.
This is how you get new alliances around the world against the US. This could spiral very quickly.
【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】That's literally Donald Trump's agenda. That's why he fought the TPP.
Maple EngineerDO IT!
Just look at the TPP. The US tried to write the rules and the rest of the partners said, "No." The US said, "Screw you guys, we're going home!" and stormed off in a snit assuming the deal would fall apart without them but it didn't and it ended up being better without the US imperialist bullshit. Then, US farmers realized that they were getting fucked because the US wasn't part of the deal ([1], [2], [3]) and the US came back demanding to be let in and the US imperialist bullshit restored to the agreement. Once again the partnerd said, "No".
Let's let the US leave whatever they want to leave, renegotiate everything without them, then only let them return under the new terms. The world will be a much better place in the end.
EDIT: Trump ordered the US to withdraw from the TPP because the partners wouldn't be bullied into accepting one-sided andi-competitive, anti-consumer protections for US industry and a dispute resolution process that favoured the US but that the US would ignore when it lost.
Yeah, let's replace the world order of the last hundred years to one that's run by Russia and China. So edgy and cool.
TF? He was obviously talking about the eu I think.
I think it's time for Europe to pay back the US by invading the US to kill fascists.
The 3rd amendment shields us from housing military without our consent. But does anything prevent us from willingly housing foreign troops?
CharlesDarwinWell, "JD" "Vance" had better remember to always do what donvict wants him to do, otherwise, he'll get the Pence treatment.
davelIs the presumptive VP speedrunning *boy who cried wolf*? If the US is going to pull out of NATO, I doubt it’ll be over pennyante shit like 𝕏itter regulation.
World Wars ‘hero’ pass revoked.
Go fuck yourselves. Misinformation and money over world peace, fuck you and everyone who thinks this was something you could dismiss for a lying fascist to tank your economy and kill your neighbours while killing people elsewhere.
Cowbee [he/they]Are you saying NATO is for or against World Peace? The Global North loves NATO for solidifying Imperialist power, the Global South hates NATO because the Global South is the target of said Imperialism, and NATO solidifies that system of global exploitation.
Yay for the American oligarchs
The American bourgeoisie loves NATO, which is why this will likely never happen.
Yay for the American oligarchs
Yay, for Europeans banking everything from security, economy, foreign policy to continuation of transatlantism and therefore making every US problem and shakeup our problem. Not to even speak of the many occasions when US tries to use it's power over Europe to shank Europe for US's own gain.
DO IT!
Just look at the TPP. The US tried to write the rules and the rest of the partners said, "No." The US said, "Screw you guys, we're going home!" and stormed off in a snit assuming the deal would fall apart without them but it didn't and it ended up being better without the US imperialist bullshit. Then, US farmers realized that they were getting fucked because the US wasn't part of the deal ([1], [2], [3]) and the US came back demanding to be let in and the US imperialist bullshit restored to the agreement. Once again the partnerd said, "No".
Let's let the US leave whatever they want to leave, renegotiate everything without them, then only let them return under the new terms. The world will be a much better place in the end.
EDIT: Trump ordered the US to withdraw from the TPP because the partners wouldn't be bullied into accepting one-sided andi-competitive, anti-consumer protections for US industry and a dispute resolution process that favoured the US but that the US would ignore when it lost.
Yeah, what Trump voters don't realize is that the US withdrawing from NATO would mean an end to most of their soft power. You can have the biggest and most modern army in the world, but if you give up your bases all over the world you severely limit your way to project that power.
As opposed to what the propaganda talking points say, the US doesn't have these bases to protect others out of the kindness of their hearts. It's to project their military power, to be ready to strike within minutes, no matter where. This is an incredibly powerful position in the world. Giving those up will of course cost them less in short term, but in the long term it's probably one of the biggest geopolitical mistakes in history, since they will probably not be allowed back once the bases are gone. And the money saved will quickly evaporate in the military budget.
And soft power=economic power.
But these guys have shown that they don’t care if the world burns after them. Everything for short term gains. What does the trumpet care about what the world looks like after he’s gone?
This is completely insane revisionist history. The TPP was in fact ripe for ratification, with full support of American ratification from its international partners, but was logjammed in the United States due to a Republican Senate.
The reformed TPP is similar to the original one and only exists to work around the loss of U.S. as a participant. And the U.S. never rejoined. There's a grain of truth to the thing about farmers, at least, but good gravy, this is otherwise pretty nuts.
You were right. The US never rejoined.
Trump ordered the US to withdraw from the TPP because the partners refused to agree to one sided, anti-competitive, anti-consumer protections for US industry and a one sided, US centric dispute resolution process which the US would ignore when it lost.
The patnership is up and running and functioning as intended and US farmers continue to moan about the fact that they lost access to the TPP market. The Brookings Institute wrote an interesting article about it.
This seems like an insane threat.
The US is the primary beneficiary of NATO. Does he expect all those countries will keep hosting US military bases if NATO drops?
Are they actually US bases or are they actually NATO bases?
If the latter, then it'd just be case of "my swipe card doesn't work anymore".
It's a bit confusing to figure out who technically owns the bases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_military_installations
As near as I can tell, almost all of them are actually owned by the US. The more important aspect is how it affects the "deal".
The implied "deal" has always been that the US provides military resources to defend "the West" against the USSR/Russia and, in exchange, the US gets to be the primary voice in determining international policy (ie the famous "rules based international order"). That's why the US president has traditionally been referred to as, "the leader of the free world."
That deal has degraded a bit over time as other Western countries recovered from the damage of WWII and started flexing their own power.
Altering the deal so that everyone else pays entirely (or mostly) for its own defense also removes or seriously damages the incentive to follow the US vision of international policy.
The dissolution of NATO would be fantastic for the Global South to no longer have a military alliance of Imperialists lording over the world, but I doubt Trump would actually follow through with that. This is a nothingburger, the collapse of NATO will not come from twitter drama.
Sabre rattling, or legit threat?
Their negotiation position within NATO isn't absolute, so I think the most likely response is the EU agreeing to look at it, and that Trump is smart and handsome, and then mostly doing whatever they were going to do anyway.
hes not as pathological with his lies as his orange fuckbuddy but it makes his statements suspect
AntiOutsideAktion
So.. extortion then?
Yes, that's the word.
Europe is about to experience what africa and south america have been experiencing for decades.
Buckle up.
The difference is that Europe should be more capable of resisting America. We'll see if that actually happens but given how things have gone before when the EU went after American companies I don't think they'll budge easily.
Not when combined with "completely unrelated" tarrifs and psyops from china and russia.
10 years until europe falls.
Not being able to access American sites will allow local competitors to appear. Back in 2005-2010, before Facebook, there were many local social platforms and forums. For example, these are all from Romania.
He's just being honest about US foreign policy for the last 80 years.
These autocrats have always wanted to drop NATO.
Let’s not pretend like X is their reason. Supporting autocracy is their reason, and now they’re trying to come up with excuses to get the public onboard.
Yes, but they need to repay the rat elon for all his support during the campaign. This might even be true
As a European, i say, "Please go ahead." While I like the idea of Nato, I want my politicians to be forced to take action in creating an eu Military and not rely on Nato for defence.
Also out of curiosity, will you guys be deporting immigrants like Elon Musk? Who invalidated their visa.
Can Canada apply to join Europe?
Pretty please svp
I think we have one free chair left after UK, so...
Something tells me he's not going anywhere.
We laugh at this, but I suspect someone on trumps team has seen this and thought " OMG it's so easy!"
Well of course, we know that reading comprehension isnt strong in the MAGAhole sphere.
Y use word. Picture eazy, make sence.
imagine if trump seized everything he can from him and deported him for being immigrant
And then you get idiots that will tell someone that is not American : "uh why do you care so much about our election, it's not your country"
Well yes your (vice) president is starting to extort the rest of the world before even starting his mandate...
Also, we draw lines on maps and build borders but the environment doesnt care where pollution & emissions originate, everything spreads everywhere in the end.
An NATO without the US would be better for the whole world although I know that it's not Vance intention
Very much this.
Just look at the TPP. The US tried to write the rules and the rest of the partners said, "No." The US said, "Screw you guys, we're going home!" and stormed off in a snit assuming the deal would fall apart without them but it didn't and it ended up being better without the US imperialist bullshit. Then, US farmers realized that they were getting fucked because the US wasn't part of the deal ([1], [2], [3]) and the US came back demanding to be let in and the US imperialist bullshit restored to the agreement. Once again the partnerd said, "No".
Let's let the US leave whatever they want to leave, renegotiate everything without them, then only let them return under the new terms. The world will be a much better place in the end.
EDIT: Trump ordered the US to withdraw from the TPP because the partners wouldn't be bullied into accepting one-sided andi-competitive, anti-consumer protections for US industry and a dispute resolution process that favoured the US but that the US would ignore when it lost.
This is the absolute weirdest thing about Trump's governance to me: how sometimes he ends up doing good things for terrible reasons, like when the US redeployed from Syria.
Not even in office yet, and already making threats.
I’d like to see Europe tell Vance to fuck off. I suspect that if Europe gives in now, the Trump administration will make this same threat every time Europe does something he doesn’t like.
Trump will be an unreliable NATO ally anyway, so it isn’t much of a risk on Europe’s part.
Don't negotiate with terrorists
And this was from September so not even elected yet.
Tbh it kinda sounds like they just want to leave NATO regardless.
I get the same feeling, too. They’re just looking for an excuse to ditch Europe - perhaps as a sacrifice to Putin.
Ofc they won't SAY *that* - they'll talk about "what a fantastic savings it will be, to not spend that money", and probably they'll work up gently to the point of sending US citizens to become meat shields like the North Koreans and so many others lately. But at each stage, it will always be what "we" wanted to do - it's "our" idea to do it, I tell you!?
I wouldn't be surprised if he pulls the US out of NATO and the UN, since he hates both organizations.
I'd be amazed if he does any of it tbh. Last time he just spent most of it playing golf, and sticking his goofy-ass signature on anything they stick in front of him.
The last thing they want to do is actually *deal* with the boogeyman issues. If they did that they'll have nothing to campaign on next time.
Most of this will be spent lining their own pockets.
This is such an optimistic take. I am very concerned they will spend the next 4 years making sure whatever election we have next is more similar to a Russian “election”.
Why wouldn't they try? They've done everything they could so far and face no repercussions, why not go ahead and try to be king? A few people will fret and tut-tut but if nobody is going to do anything it doesn't amount to much.
Well, Trump specifically may not try because the risk/reward isn't really good for him.
As it stands, he gets to declare an unambiguous "victory" where he won at life. He got to be president with ultimately a clean sweep of the swing states and the popular vote and served as many terms as he is allowed to serve. Thanks to the rules, he doesn't need to compete again, and he can stop even pretending to work after 4 years.
Meanwhile, a push to establish him as "dictator for life" might at best buy him another few years in office before his health will fail. Such an effort comes with high risk, of him going down in history as more of a "bad man", of personal risk for being targeted by violence.
Now JD Vance might be game to make a go of it, he's got decades left in the tank. Of course broadly speaking there's a balance of power, with those currently in power relatively comfortable knowing that the vote serves as a nice way to get pushed out of office before people get pissed enough to put you in real physical danger. Plenty of opportunities to be self-serving with a pretty safe retirement should things start going awry. Fanaticism can drive people to go further, but I would like to think a pragmatic person with a sense of self-interest can see the value in a peaceful voting out versus having those same millions of people losing their political voice.
This shit is so naive.
The fact that he'll spend all his time playing golf or whatever will leave ample room for all his appointees to actually govern. It's not Trump we should be worried about.
This is so naive. They literally told us exactly what they will do, and it literally has "2025" in the title. We need to listen to them when they tell us what they are going to do.
Didn't congress make it practically impossible to pull out of nato now?
Republicans will control Congress. I'm sure they'll be fine rolling anything back.
Do you not understand what the word "dictator" means? He told us what he's going to be. Congress is irrelevant, and if it continues to exist, it will be to rubber stamp, at best.
If I recall correctly countries can't withdrawl from the UN without their approval
Problem is though that the un-united dystopia of america could cause issues in the UN
The US pulling out of the UN would allow them to pass all sorts of cool stuff, like recognizing and admitting Palestine and calling for a ceasefire, recognizing the universal rights of children, and condemning the far-right, all of which the US used its veto power to stop against overwhelming support on the other side.
It's going to be a hell of a long 4 years, for America and the rest of the world. Damn.
They should do this with Sanctions.
Not too long ago, this would be a career-ending display of corruption.
Yup.
In case anyone hasn't noticed, the goalposts for norms have significantly shifted in the last decade. This is historically how it always begins.
Buckle up. Protect yourself.
Yes, and if called out, they say it happens for freedom of speech, which is absurd given that the richest man on earth provides the infrastructure and has a large presence on the platform himself.
Cool, no more need for American military bases in our countries then. Or sharing intelligence with them. Or propping up their arms industry.
People in Sardinia are going to be happy about this
There's still that little issue of building up your own. Most EU countries have been demilitarizing for 30 years more and more, with the strategy being "it's a new world without wars, and also big daddy USA will protect us, and if not them, then Britain and France will". Britain has done an exit, and France alone is kinda lazy.
That's not the Europe I see now and sounds like a US President trope. I would agree that post-Cold War that was the case, but I'd say in the last decade at least, it's not.
But, genuine question as I'm open to being wrong, saved this is an area that interests me, do you have sources for this?
Yeah, the person above isn't being accurate at all.
While here in the UK we rely heavily on the US for control of Trident, the US dropping NATO support would just require additional defence spending and closer alignment with Europe. If Trump is bought by Russia, Putin would see this as a Very Bad Thing, and would want to keep the US in the fold because even with the US NATO would likely steamroll Russia.
The Trump dynamic is somewhat problematic, should it fester elsewhere in Europe. Globalisation was an important trait to maintain for the US, whereas most populist movements move towards buying local or supporting national interests above all else. Europe is largely self-sufficient, even in defence, so Trump would probably cut off huge numbers of imports/exports just to prop up Elon's shitty cars.
Putin has been working to dismantle NATO for a long time though. Whether he is right or wrong, he clearly feels that the US pulling out of NATO is in his interest.
the british military slashed budgets considerably after 2008. we've maintained special forces and we decomissioned our last carrier before its replacement was ready. we're back up to 2 carriers now but dont have enough planes to put on them.
we have virtually no stockpiles of artillery and our land forces are small.
From an entirely selfish perspective, the UK has very few threats militarily, unless the French decide to invade again.
Russia have demonstrated the ability to carry out chemical weapons attacks on mainland UK soil.
if a full on exchange we would be out of air defence ammunition very quickly.
The Skripal thing? No amount of tanks or missiles can stop espionage.
Nah. It's a trope all right.
"For 20 years" is fine.
Britain has in no way done an exit. Going out of a trade and economic union has nothing to do with their military commitments.
To defense as part of NATO - yes.
That would work, if the EU hasn’t been sleeping on their defense, and relying on Daddy USA to protect Europe
What a coincidence that Elon Musk paid 100+ million for their campaign
This is why billionaires shouldn't exist.
The other thing I need to mention is that is that Elon Musk is far from the only billionaire with a massively disproportionate influence on elections and society. Or even the biggest. He is just the biggest attention whore of them all.
I imagine him and other billionaires in a group chat with him word vomiting every time he has an idea of how to further fuck the USA.
Democracy voted for this, apparently
It'd be messed up for the government to do this even if he wasn't a billionaire though. End corporations in bed with government.
If anyone is interested these countries are ahead of the USA from 1-25:
Denmark
Switzerland
Sweden
Belgium
Estonia
Norway
Finland
Ireland
Germany
Iceland
Portugal
Austria
New Zealand
Canada
Argentina
Spain
Czech Republic
Italy
Latvia
Costa Rica
Uruguay
France
Dominican Republic
Netherlands
Vanuatu
Insult Musk on Twitter, wait until posts are censored, sue X for not having freedom of speech. How's that for American values?
Freedom of speech only applies against the government. Private companies are free to throw you off their platforms for any reason or no reason at all.
Well if he isn't already, it's only a matter of time before Musk is part of the government (ugh goddammit I want to vomit), and I would not put it past them to attempt to make X some kind of "official" government app. Tons of money for Musk, and the US government now controls the data of hundreds of millions of users, as well as complete control over what is and isn't shown on the site.
See how easy it is to come up with this shit? Fascism is easy mode for amoral sociopaths.
Vance doesn't know that
Also threaten to pull broadcast licenses for any news agency that looks at you with squinting eyes. Yay freedom of speech.
Sure that's not corrupt at all.
Block the lot.
We don't need US far right propaganda.
We have our own.
France's military industry is having wet dreams thinking about it.
If the US pulls out of NATO France becomes the biggest arms exporter of NATO and I would expect other countries will become less enthusiastic at the idea of buying US weapons systems.
Doesnt Germany also produce a whole lot while their own army is rotting away?
Here is the share of global arms export per country.
Germany, Italy and the UK are also big exporters but still behind France.
Im actually surprised that FR is so much higher. Really unexpected.
It's not that surprising once you know that their goal is to be completely independent for their US for their military equipment.
It includes the nuclear bomb, missiles, fighter jet, aircraft carrier, submarines, even space capabilities (even if this last part has been lacking a bit lately).
They don't have the US military budget but they want the same level of technology without any ties to the US.
It means that they are exporting a lot to compensate for the high investments they are pouring into military technology.
x is a government platform now. Sign onto your government social media account.
Listen, if it were a government website it would be unusable for the vast majority of users, and basically impossibly to navigate, so we got that going for us. Looking at you DTS.
Now that you say this, I’m not afraid they may make all banking transactions go through truth social or x.
They don't need to do that, feds already have access to all of your banking information.
Maybe but then through X they can collect fees
Oh so they're copying infamous and largely ineffective wolf warrior tactics from China. Good way to make every single country despise and look down on the US.
Looking down at the US is actually the norm for other countries.
Downward angle is increasing significantly now though, I'd imagine
This is a key part of fascism, government and industry being one and the same entity.
It's Fascism all the way down!
God I hate Earth.
Earth is lovely, it's humanity I struggle with.
Humanity is lovely, it's politicians I struggle with.
Couchfucker said what?
Couchfucker said we cannot band The Dipshit
Old article, btw. This is from Sept 2024. I get that's what he promised, and while I think he's a complete asshat, let's not discount that he and Trump said and will say anything to appear smart, capable, and as if they have a plan.
Time will tell if this actually comes to pass, but I'm not actually going to hold my breath for this one.
Good note, I didn't notice that in the original post. I edited the title
This is expected. A hallmark of fascism is state capitalism — a fusion of the corporation and the state — with corporations administered more like org units of the fascist party.
Many of us have been saying that this is the natural end state of capitalism all along, if it's allowed to run its course.
Problem is that it's hurting the economy, meaning that if your hypothesis is right, capitalism collapses rather quickly if left on it's on devices.
Yeah, but you just distract the idiots with "illegal" immigrants, and abortion, and perceived "enemies within", etc. etc.
It works every single time.
It only ever works for a decade or two before it obliterates the economy every single time.
🤨... You ever heard of a place called China?
Yeah that's exactly what I mean. It's the best example that state capitalism is extremely destructive and cannibalizing the economy.
So, the US wants to lose the only influence it actually has on Europe?
I say go for it.
They can't even wait two fucking months before saying explicitly fascist shit like this.
So many people are in for a rude awakening, including many people on the left who have no concept of what is coming. This is what happens when you don't teach history, I guess.
Yup.
Everyone, left and right, are about to go through something very unpleasant together.
I never did have any hope for those on the right, but I hope those on the left that helped make this happen become fully aware of their mistake.
If ur mean to Elon we leave NATO.
A very hinged take. Thank you Kanye, very cool.
The only way to deal with them is to call them on every bluff so that making a bluff becomes a liability'
Hope everyone is ready for this to be at least the next 4 years of our lives.
I say at least because these losers ran on fundamentally changing how our government works. In 4 years they may be able to create a scenario in which it's literally impossible for them to lose an election. Not to mention the effect this will have on global politics.
We let the Stupids have total control of our federal government. Suffering will become the norm. And if you think we're suffering now? Well, might be time to pick up a history book.
Can't wait to see what these fuckheads have in store for America, and the rest of the world. Plus, Canada is getting it's own version of Trump next year, so that's incredible too.
What wonderful times we live in.
But hey Gaza, imright, oh wait.
We should really start to believe them when they say these things, and prepare accordingly.
The "it can't happen here" mentality is so ingrained, that I feel like even many of the people who know that it is bullshit, still aren't fully comprehending what is coming. Which I get, because it's hard to comprehend. But boy is it frustrating.
How fascist of him
The government using it's power in the service of corporations
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They do not care. They are the worst people this side of Pol Pot and Stalin and still get all the votes for the republican party.
I think we should collectively block twitter on our routers and be done with it.
Just curious, I left all my tech savvy in 2008. How is blocking Twitter any different from just not using it?
You won't generate traffic on embedded posts and you won't inadvertently open the site clicking on links
Gotcha, thanks for answering!
Why do you think they care? Even if their followers didn't have cult-like devotion, the chances that we will ever have a free and fair presidential election ever again are extremely slim. Why should they care about optics?
Holding Western stability hostage in the name of the oligarchs, good job voting everyone...
No no no, you see, we showed the democrats by not showing up to vote! /s
uuugh... I made myself sick quoting those jackass fucktards. (I did vote, and screamed until I was blue in the face to get people to vote. About every year.)
The sad part is that that also describes what the Democrats did to get us into this mess.
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You have data to back that up I assume?
Biden had polling in his hands that said Trump would get 400 electoral votes against him on the day he decided to run for a second term. Then he held on just long enough to make certain we would have no primary and be stuck with a candidate who couldn't shake the stink of his presidency.
Harris lost the popular vote by over 4-million votes. There aren't that many "leftist extremists" in the whole damn country, and only a small subset of those wouldn't have voted for Harris.
The vast bulk of those who stayed home were left leaning apolitical normies. Most of the country fits in that group.
A candidate who couldn't make it to the first primary in her last campaign for this position too! I felt what I could only describe as "meta-unease" about her.
If I felt so unmotivated, how uninspired was everyone else?
Also I think the racial rhetoric from the Dems is turning some Black voters off.
Literally did the thing you criticized them for.
Best I could do without a definition for the stupid use of "leftist extremists" with no definition. My point is, there is zero evidence to blame this election on leftists of any stripe.
But if it's not the leftists fault...
You are delusional
Dunno if it was enough to change the results, but I agree 100%. As a progressive myself: fuck these people.
Please tell me the whole world isn’t going to suck his balls like last time
I'm hoping my State doesn't suck his balls like last time.
my state is already sucking his balls like last time :(
Ah, I'm sorry. Hang in there.
This guy is the future vice president. Fuck you people of America.
More than likely future president. Trump served his purpose in getting his cult to take over America. He'll probably step down to play golf and have sex with minors.
It'll be the 25th amendment.
The fun part will be watching Trump and his maga cult fight it, cope with it, and eventually come to terms they have been grifted.
This is why people say Americans are morons, because they elect shitheads like this.
So, accept cybertrucks in the narrow streets of Italian hill towns, high fructose corn syrup in all food, freedom of hate speech driving vulnerable voices out of your public square, and AR-15s for everyone who wants one, or we throw you to the Orcs?
What a time to be alive.
Not for long, if RFK Jr has his way.
What a weird tactic for such a weird, little person.
Lol. He's actually 6'3" though (190.5cm), so pretty tall.
Still, I absolutely hate mixing diplomatic/military policy and economic policy. Screw all of that. Doesn't change his height though.
Yes. Attacking peoples appearance will surely teach the opposition not to do the same.
Perfectly executed strategy.
haha they're so WEIRD said the liberal on the way to the concentration camp
Does cheering on the Nazis make you feel good about yourself?
they're so quirky let's normalize their rhetoric, those weirdos are so silly. you wouldn't wanna be seen as lame by voting for them.
I'm so glad Democrats pulled out all the stops
Well, they tried "fascist," but Americans are literally too fucking stupid to know what that means.
They should have just lied, I guess.
I believe I speak for all of us Europeans when I say he can go fuck himself while sucking off Elon's micropenis.
Suck our misinformaphalus and don’t apply your own laws or we will abandon you.
Sounds like fascist talk, yeah.
JD Vance is crazy
They want to do it anyway and just look for excuses to blame others.
The fucking Government of Putin wants to kill off the US defense industry. If the asswipes do this, they will cutoff the spare parts to keep the weapons maintained. Fuck that shit, it's time for the EU to purchase and use EU made weapon systems because the USA will become an unreliable partner. Furthermore, the US military can leave all their installations in Europe and rebuild them in fucking Russia for all I care.
Doesn't he know that NATO profit US the most?
Never thought I would say this but PLEASE let Trump live another 4 years.
Stage 1. I want Trump dead in office, like asap.
Stage 2. I am terrified of a President Vance.
Stage 3. I want Trump live another few years.
Maybe they both die and we get Mike Johnson!
I'm holding for Thanos' snap wiping out several specific people
Yiu know as well as I do that Vance was the real candidate all along. The orange buffoon will be martyred less than a year after he takes office to make way for him. Vance is much easier to control.
Vance is also directly out Peter thiel pocket or other areas around their crotch
I guess the next four years will be "interesting" and divisive. This world is going from bad to worse.
Now is the time for Europe to rally behind Ukraine. We really should have upped military funding and arms production in preparation for this outcome.
Trump and Vance hold no actual power. Musk is now the shadow president of the USA.
I wish this were true... You should probably read some history about fascism/totalitarianism. Musk, and his corporations, are just another arm of the authoritarian government, to be used on the whim of our singular leader. Usually to mete out vengeance for perceived slights, and occasionally reward a crony for their loyalty (until they're no longer needed, of course).
This is how all corporations function under this system, otherwise they are eliminated.
Welcome back to the political spoils system.
Don't threaten them with good times
Imagine caping for that fuckin' lizard. Couldn't be me.
Americans taking some inspiration from WeChat.
Nonsense sofa!
Ehem so far
Oh that would go over well. Seems like they don't understand what NATO actually is
I for one would welcome the shuttering of US miltary bases in Europe and around the world. Bring it on.
Saves us money too, which could be used for social welfare systems lol none of this will happen.
For needy billionaires, maybe.
Well NATO works both ways, and we've seen recently what happens if russia decides to walk into a non-NATO country.
If russia walks into the USA then NATO (probably renamed to the European Defence something) will be sitting back going "hey, sucks to be you. Shame you're not in a mutual defence pact or something."
They might as well try and invade the moon.
The orange dickhead is not yet at his new place, but the asshole followers are already raging :(