PieFed‘An uphill battle’: why are midlife men struggling to make – and keep – friends?
return2ozmawww.theguardian.com/wellness/ng-interactive/202…
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IDK about everyone else but most of my friends vanished when they got married and started having kids. They never had time to do anything away from their kids and hanging with a bunch of children around didn't appeal to those of us without them eventually I was the last one standing with no family obligations. I have since found another friend group that are mostly on various spectrums that make it unlikely they'll be getting married/kids though.
A society where having kids is a social death sentence is one where people will choose to go without
It's certainly one of the reasons I don't want them. Can't do a lot of the things I enjoy with kids around and the stuff you can do gets worse with children constantly interrupting.
Yeah that’s me, I got so busy that I just disappeared from friend groups. I’m very introverted, so even after we got past the more challenging parts of kids I relied on my ex to collect couple friends, and my kids to make family friends. Now that the kids are grown up and the ex is an ex, I have to start over …. But I’m very introverted
Jake FarmSome people have struggled all their lives. Room mates makes making friends easier but you also trade off with having potential asshole roommates.
SamskaraTraditional male social structures, groups, and third places have eroded.
Nowadays there are men‘s groups, which I can highly recommend to join or make one yourself.
What also works is being part of a local volunteer organization like volunteer fire brigade. Or like outdoors sports and such. Being part of a music band, orchestra, or choir is another great thing.
As a straight man, every straight man I've ever been friends with has eventually simply made me so tired to be around them.
Like, times are hard. But then we just collectively... have unmet needs, and so many of us deal so badly with them. It just seems like straight men inevitably make it everyone else's problem.
I have heard the same old thing so many times-- to have a friend, be a friend. Reach out. Listen, be empathetic, blah blah blah. And I wind up hanging out with some douchebag thinking to myself why am I in the same room with this fucking guy. Before I know it he's drunk or desperate for a long, long hug from being so touch starved, or he lets his guard down and casually says some slur. I don't have the patience to be friends with straight men. I don't have the patience to start to try.
it's nice you all found well balanced queer people to befriend but keep in mind we also may not be as mentally put together as you perceive. i say this as a gay dude with lots of issues.
There's a lot of people out there with mental health issues. Poor mental health doesn't discriminate and doesn't really target a single group. What's important to myself is that people are aware of their own health, honest about it and make an effort to deal with it in their own way.
I tend to find queer people to be a lot more open and accepting of others and their differences in general. Especially in comparison to the straight people who I've been around in my personal experiences.
Also, I have Autism and ADHD. I've stumbled through life and the people who I've felt the closest connections with also had differenly wired brains. The queer people I have met accept me just as I am.
I know I'd have more friends who identified as straight if they learned how to love themselves and care for their overall health. I can also say that about practically any other group of people as well.
However I can appreciate the uphill struggle to love a queer self in a straight dominated world. That's a steep hill to climb and most people are doing it with very little support. It's easy to see how some people just can't mentally handle it.
I also find many men to be extremely exhausting. I basically lost all my male friends since 2020. The majority of them just refused to look inwards to address their mental health. The few who did make efforts to work on their mental health still managed to say some wildy fucked up things that made me stop trying to stay connected.
Nearly all of them are trapped in a cycle of complaining about the same mistakes they continue to make. There's no going forward. I no longer have the energy to stay around that mindset.
Since then I've turned to the queer community and I've begun meeting genuine people who I feel comfortable being around. The connection I feel with them has been deep and has happened so quickly. It's a feeling that has been completely absent with any male friends I've had in the past.
It would be nice to teach any lonely guy to not be so afraid of anything or anyone that is different. Sadly they wouldn't want to listen. It's simply too easy to spread blame and continue to complain.
I guess we're kinda forced to do some self reflecting, at the cost of being mentally fucked up from being hunted for sport by right wingers
From my experience, it's hard to help others if I can't help myself first. After doing some intense self reflection, it's helped me to understand the type of solidarity I need to look out for in the future.
At the very least, I can be more mentally prepared to take future opportunities that rise up. Although deep down I feel that I'm going to have to a lot more to defend the vulnerable and those that I deeply care about.
If more people were willing to fight through the pain and discomfort of self reflection, solidarity against the powerful few wouldn't seem like such an intimidating mountain. But that's just what I believe.
This has also been my experience. Then again, I always had problems dealing with mainstream straight guys, even as a kid. Growing up with untreated AuADHD and being a massive nerd really didn't make things easy. As an adult, it's been really hard to find friends in my own gender/orientation as nearly every one of them that I come across seems to let the mask slip a bit and say or do something very problematic.
So, I decided to drop that cohort and start intentionally socializing with people in more LGBTQ-heavy spaces. It's done wonders for the social anxiety that I developed over years of doing little but work too much. Now I've got some budding friendships with people from all across the LGBTQ+ rainbow and people encouraging me to be emotional vulnerabile (in a healthy way). It's pretty fucking fantastic.
I guess the lesson to learn from this is that straight guys should go to therapy to deal with their problems (and learn more about their emotions) and seek friendship with LGBTQ+ people (and look out for and stand up for them, when they need it).
What spaces would that be? I'm in the same boat, undiagnosed AuDHD for most of my life until very recently, have always been the odd one out, mostly interested in nerd stuff, little energy to deal with people... I'd love to get in touch with LGBTQ folks but have no idea where to start (yeah sure, there are a lot of places online, but I'd prefer actual face-to-face activities)
I live near a large city so my options are quite open. I was able to find queer events within that city quite easily. Eventbrite.com has pages and pages of events available for me.
I went to a few that focused on meeting queer people. Halloween parties, board game nights, trivia. You may also find events under neurodiverse labels as well. There would definitely be some overlap with the queer community there too.
I chose a therapist that worked with queer people and people who have alternative lifestyles. She was the one who made that suggestion to me and that was probably the most helpful thing she had done for me.
Hopefully you have some luck, I imagine it would be difficult to find queer communities in less populates areas.
The city I'm living in is not that small, fortunately, so there probably are some options that I just don't know of yet.
Was it hard for you to get into groups? My social anxiety kicks in just thinking about meeting new people, though that likely stems from past experiences with NT folk
I have pretty bad social anxiety but I also am able to let my adhd do the driving. I've travelled and live abroad in foreign places but to my friends and family back home I'm nearly non-verbal. All that to say I feel like I live a very hypocritical life.
I behave differently based on the situation. My first queer social meet up was a bit strange. It was 95% women and I felt completely out of place. I ended up just talking to a guy for most of the night and as I was leaving, ended up meeting a bunch of other people. One of them happened to be going to the same concert as me the following week. We exchanged numbers and now her and I are super close friends.
I generally arrive to these events with an open mind and a genuine smile and that's enough for people to come talk to me. It can feel very intimidating at first but even getting out there at all is a huge step in the right direction. If you don't meet people the first time, there will always be another event. Becoming a regular face also helps other people coming to introduce themselves to you.
I'm awful for going up and introducing myself to others so I look for ways to be more inviting for people to come talk to me. It's not as direct but I've found some wonderful people that way. Whatever works is good enough for me :)
board game nights
My favorite events, so far. Getting to hang out with new-to-me nerds and play games that I've never heard of is a blast.
I chose a therapist that worked with queer people and people who have alternative lifestyles. She was the one who made that suggestion to me
Funnily enough, my therapist made similar recommendations. Having not ever fit in well with other cis/het guys, intentionally seeking out people in the queer space and those living alternate lifestyles has been a breath of fresh air.
My reasoning for seeking out that type of therapist came from a situation that happened about a couple years earlier. A former friend and coworker accidentally introduced me to a queer girl. Her and I talked a lot about mental health and became close friends over time.
My former friend was being a creep towards her and I saw how much it affected her when she came eventually forward to tell me about it. We no longer talk to him anymore. It was after both her and her partner asked me to come visit that I came to understand how caring and accepting queer people can be.
When I came back home, I realized I wanted to be treated like a unique individual just like how my friend and her partner treated me. What better place than a queer community where so many others have fought to be their own person. Especially when there's so much social pressure to fit into a single lifeless mould.
Being surrounded by uniqueness gives so much colour to life.
I'm in the same boat, undiagnosed AuDHD for most of my life until very recent
We are in almost exactly the same boat. Didn't get diagnosed with ADHD until about 7 years ago. Then, once initial ADHD was a bit under control, the ASD side of things became more apparent.
What spaces would that be?
...
I'd love to get in touch with LGBTQ folks but have no idea where to start (yeah sure, there are a lot of places online, but I'd prefer actual face-to-face activities)
It really depends on your interests. I've had some good success with sex-positive/kink communities (still in an extended initial exploration of the latter). There's a surprising amount of neurodiverse and wonderfully nerdy presence there as well as extraordinary levels of inclusivity. Probably the best places to go looking are event-oriented sites and apps (probably give apps by dating companies a miss).
Even if that isn't quite your thing, I might recommend trying out "Plura" (formerly Bloom, I think), if there's presence in your area. There are a lot of events that pop up that are not sexuality or kink related as well as, at least in my area, frequent free and reasonable cost seminars. These are often covering topics that are of potential use for neurodivergent people as well as more neurotypical people who have experienced trauma and/or, like many straight men, are not very knowledgeable/skilled with their emotions.
Sexuality and kink is right down my alley, I'm just too shy to talk about such topics with strangers. I'm gonna look into it anyway, thank you for your suggestions.
Just find a scheduled non-sexual kink event in your area (like a munch) and pregame with whatever mind altering substance improves your social anxiety enough to walk in the door. I recommend hard Arnold Palmers, since they taste good (or at least okay), contain caffeine to up your energy levels a bit, and are available at most gas stations/liquor stores.
Anecdotal but I've lost multiple social groups to breakups even though I was the one being abused in the majority of my relationships
Typically when this happens, there are a few reasons.
1) the social group is full of trash people. This isn't unlikely, considering they chose your abuser over you. That they no longer want to hang out with you should be counted as a win.
2) They were your partner's friends to begin with. If it's a non-amicable breakup, of course they will choose them over you.
3) You always took a back seat while your partner did all the socializing and meeting people. While you might have felt you had a connection with them, they primarily saw you as "xyz's partner".
Solutions:
1) Stop dating abusers. If you notice abusive behavior in someone, break up with them sooner rather than later.
2) Be more proactive around meeting people and fostering relationships. Go out and meet people and build your social network while you are single. When you are dating someone, continue to go out and spend time doing your own thing with your own group of friends. When you and a partner meet a new group of people, proactively introduce yourself. Actively cultivate and deepen the relationships you have with others.
3) Breakups often lead to one of the ex's not being invited around anymore. While this can be mitigated by (2), sometimes people just feel awkward about spending time around two people who have broken up. If you think this is happening, proactively reach out to the people you like in the group and see if they want to hang out independently - continuing these interactions can lead to you being invited around after everyone's feelings of weirdness have subsided. But sometimes you will just lose a social group, and that's okay, too. If you have been proactive about cultivating relationships, as in (2), you should have other social groups to fall back on.
To counterbalance the "woe is me" (which is a perfectly valid life experience, and I do not mean to diminish it). I am posting so that people with no life experience do not think the "woe is me" is the only experience.
Decent adult straight men exist. We are just busy with family, careers and volunteering. One will not meet us in a bar as we, collectively, don't have time for that. Volunteer for a cause one supports, and one will meet people one likes more.
As an aside, do men have the same issues as women in meeting "good" men? And is our collective taste in men rubbish? Is it something "we" are all watching on TV?
Edit: Really great article by the way. It is long with lots of examples and personal stories from men around the USA.
Vanilla_PuddinFudgeBecause, since 2011 or so, you never actually unplug from anyone.
Historically, men will come together only when there is a cause, otherwise they prefer the stoic life. The quiet man is not struggling to make friends. There are lonely men however. Those are the ones we need to notice and assist.
Do "normal" people really have 10 or more close friends? I've never had that many close friends my entire life.
Yeah, I feel like their "close friends" in 1990 were probably just the guys at the Lodge or the bowling league. I'm not sure those relationships are any deeper than the parasocial relationships we form online. Just a bunch of guys with nothing else to do on Wednesday nights, so they just go down to some social club and roleplay.
I think I've got right around there where I'm living now; that's part of what makes it hard to contemplate leaving the country, even though this place (US) is turning pretty terrifying: I know if I leave it'll take years to build up friendships like that again, if it ever even happens.
Our friend group sits at around 17. It ebbs and flows with girl/boyfriends coming and going (though mostly all married now). I hate to say it, but the key is low standards. We don't all agree on anything. We don't all have the same hobbies or even sense of humor. But we don't kick each other out over stupid fights, and everyone is always welcome at everything. If you cut people out when they don't agree with you, or when they screw up, your friendships disappear. You just have to treat it like family.
"i can have a bbq with you" is not what i would call "close friends". A close friend is someone i can bitch to about my personal problems and trust him not to pass any of it on. A close friend is someone on whose couch i could crash in an emergency with little to no questions asked.
From your description i would have thought more of the first category, but maybe i am wrong and you all stick it out for each other like that. In this case props to you all and i hope it lasts.
I think I could show up at their doors and ask to stay the night in an emergency. They would clothe and feed me and let me cry on their couch. They absolutely will tell the other friends it happened though. My oldest friendship in the group is over 25 years at this point, and the other friendships have all trickled in, the youngest is maybe 6 years, and I only warmed up on one of the guys like 2 months ago.
Our politics aren't the same. Our religions aren't the same. Our morals don't align. One of them I hate. Some of them are kinda sexist. That's all I mean by low standards. That you can't kick your friends outta bed because you want to stick to your morals above having friends.
That doesn't sound like low standards to me, sounds sane and inviting
Yea, I'm going to have to call monkeysphere theory on this one.
What is that?
Monkeysphere theory, or more appropriately, Dunbars Number is a "suggested cognitive limit to the number of people with whom one can maintain stable social relationships."
Ah! Never heard it as monkeysphere before.
I have had the same 15ish friends for more than 20 years and we live in different cities, a few hours away from each other.
We don't see each other frequently because of the distance, but we usually spend weekends together and it feels like we have not missed a beat since the last time we saw each other.
I think it is natural to have more than 10 close friends, it is like having a small community, but modern life made it very hard to keep close friends like that. And it sucks.
Do you guys have friends?!
Well the upper 13% are by definition not normal.
However it feels normal to have that many close friends. We have lots of regular game nights or movie nights.
It is however noticable that games are often not made for big groups to play together or that restaurants have a hard time to accomodate your group of ten or more people.
It also depends on your definition of close. I'd consider some people close friends that I haven't seen in over a year.
Mid life? I'm still in uni and my offline friend group is pretty much just my girlfriend's friends who are into tech. Tbf that's mostly down to me being too introverted to talk to anyone though.
The only IRL friend I have is one that I met in elementary school. Not on the best of terms but we were somewhat similar kind of weird. Also very introverted but also anxious. I have no idea how people make friends and where to start.
I have zero RL friends and nearly zero online friends. I have no time for hobbies or events and no money for them either. All my old friends grew apart or radically changed to the point of unrecognizability. Life just feels like a cycle of sleep, eat breakfast, commute, work, commute, shower, eat dinner, sleep.
Have you tried making friends at work? In the shower?
I work alone so yes, I filed a sexual harassment charge on myself.
Did you win?
I currently have a restraining order against myself that I am actively violating
We've been physically separated by car dependency and the removal of free/cheap meeting spaces; distracted by the internet and streaming media; made to hate and fear each other by propaganda; and made temporary in our neighborhoods by rising rents and the hunt for the ever more rare decent job. That's why.
One way to meet people is to get a dog and walk them around the neighborhood. Another is to find local activity groups over discord, meetup, etc. Another is continuing ed classes at a local university or community college
I may not be the typical man, but I am mid-life, so I’m at least partially qualified to provide some anecdata on this.
Friends feel like a chore. I have to cultivate and nurture something when I’m barely able to keep a plant alive.
It would be a lot easier to make and keep friends if there was something mandatory I had to do every couple weeks. (If it’s voluntary I would find something more important to do.)
Being around a large group of people to accomplish a task is how I build relationships. But I don’t see anything like that around.
Where do you live? The reserve armed forces in Canada would fit that bill, depending on your feelings about that. A day a week and a weekend a month, I forget exactly but it's consistent, paid, but it's supposed to be easy enough to fit into a normal life schedule. They usually do disaster relief and stuff like that when they do get called, but theoretically you could be signing up for more given the state of the world.
Boy scouts/girl Guides/youth groups are always looking for group leaders.
Volunteer fire also gets close to that mark, it's voluntary but if you don't show up you get replaced.
And volunteer becomes "mandatory" the deeper you get. If you can find a small soup kitchen or conservation group, and really hold yourself to it for a few months, you might find you become vital to that organization. Then I guess it's up to your personal brain chemistry what "mandatory" means. If you have the keys, I'd assume you'd be there 30 minutes before the weekly soup prep afternoon is supposed to start to open up and meet that new person to show them around.
Many of these groups are small and in desperate need of good help and sometimes even leadership. On that same note some are little fifedoms and if you aren't getting good vibes just cut bait and move on.
Isn’t this beating a dead horse? We’ve already figured this out as a society. It’s time to move on to solutions.
But they'll lose the research grant!
Bold of you to imply they haven’t already!
I have the number of friends that I want, and I keep in touch with them by sending them messages any time I want to share sometime with them. Some friends I talk with every day I haven't seen in person in over 3 years, and we have no problem with that.
I am seeing this guy rn, but it's at most once a week because the dude has an insane schedule. But he also has hella friends and most of that schedule is hanging out with various groups.
Then again, he's not quite middle age yet. Maybe it'll all fall apart when he turns 30. 🤔